June 3, 2023

On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:

  • Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas 
  • Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, Independent of Arizona 
  • Rep. Patrick McHenry, Republican of North Carolina 
  • North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper, a Democrat 

Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”    


MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation: another weekend rocked by gun violence. And, at America’s Southern border, preparations are under way for a migration surge that may strain resources and ignite political tension.

Gunfire and panic at an outlet mall just outside of Dallas, as another gunman opens fire and, once again, an American community is the target of a mass shooter. We will have the latest.

Plus: With pandemic era border restrictions under Title 42 set to expire Thursday, once again, our Southern border braces for an influx of migrants seeking a better life in America. Leaders in border communities are sounding the alarm about the likely humanitarian crisis.

(Begin VT)

DR. VICTOR TREVINO (Mayor of Laredo, Texas): If all the numbers of migrants are transferred like it’s planned, then it’ll be devastating.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We will ask Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas about the security challenges we’re facing within the U.S.

And a rare conversation with Arizona’s independent Senator Kyrsten Sinema, who says the Biden administration had two years to prepare for the migrant surge and did not do so.

(Begin VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you talked to the White House directly about this?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA (I-Arizona): Yes, I have.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s the response?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: It has not been adequate.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you care to elaborate?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: I do not.

(LAUGHTER)

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: And as the U.S. barrels toward potential default on its debt, President Biden will sit down with congressional leaders Tuesday to negotiate lifting the debt ceiling.

We will discuss that and the concerns about stability in America’s banking system with the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Patrick McHenry.

Then: The North Carolina Republican legislature passes new restrictions on abortion. Can the Democratic governor, Roy Cooper, stop it from becoming law? We will ask him.

It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. We have a lot to get to this morning, including that migrant surge expected at the border.

But we’re going to begin another Sunday with news of gun violence shattering several communities across the country yesterday. The deadliest toll was taken in a suburb about 25 miles north of Dallas.

CBS News correspondent Omar Villafranca is on the scene — Omar.

OMAR VILLAFRANCA: Margaret, just after 3:30 yesterday afternoon, there was mayhem and carnage at this suburban mall when a gunman who was heavily armed and wearing body armor opened fire, killing eight people and injuring seven others, before police finally shot and killed him.

Investigators have not released the names of the victims or the shooter. We want to warn you, some of the video you’re about to see is disturbing.

(Begin VT)

OMAR VILLAFRANCA (voice-over): Dashcam video captured the moment the gunman emerged from a gray car in the parking lot and opened fire on people shopping at the Allen Premium Outlets.

(GUNSHOTS)

OMAR VILLAFRANCA: Shoppers ran for cover as the gunfire continued, until an Allen Police Department officer in the area on an unrelated call sprang into action.

BRIAN HARVEY (Allen, Texas, Police Chief): He heard gunshots, went to the gunshots, engaged the suspect and neutralized the suspect.

OMAR VILLAFRANCA: Witnesses described the panic and terror as the shooter fired dozens of rounds.

WOMAN: It was at least 50 to 100 rounds. It was nonstop. And there was nothing we could do.

QUESTION: Oh, my gosh.

WOMAN: It was just terrible.

MAN: All of a sudden, we hear pop, pop, pop, pop. And I go — I just grabbed my kids and ran.

OMAR VILLAFRANCA: Seven people were killed at the scene, including the gunman. Two later died from their injuries. Three of the victims are in critical condition. Four are stable.

KEN FULK (Mayor of Allen, Texas): We knew you are grieving, we are grieving. Rest assured, the nation and the world are also grieving.

(End VT)

OMAR VILLAFRANCA: Texas has been here before. Almost a year ago, 19 children and two teachers were killed in an attack at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, this is the 199th mass shooting of 2023. Today is only the 127th day of the year.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Omar, thank you.

We turn now to what’s likely to be a difficult next few weeks at the border, where several communities have already declared states of emergency.

Our homeland security and justice reporter, Nicole Sganga, is there.

NICOLE SGANGA: Margaret, the clock is ticking down on an end to Title 42, another flash point in the immigration debate.

But here on the U.S.-Mexico border, it’s not just a policy change. It’s the front lines of a humanitarian crisis.

(Begin VT)

SGANGA (voice-over): In South Texas, the Department of Homeland Security says they have encountered an influx of migrants ahead of Title 42’s end, driven by an uptick in Venezuelan nationals.

Still, others wait in Mexico camped along the Rio Grande River. New Biden administration guidelines that kick in after May 11 promise more consequences, like a one-way ticket on ICE Air. We watched as 133 migrants, hands and feet shackled, boarded a plane back to Guatemala Friday.

(NICOLE SGANGA SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

WOMAN: Venezuela.

NICOLE SGANGA: In Laredo, Texas, this emergency shelter is a welcome reprieve for many, like 29-year-old Margarita Habrew (sp?), who crossed the U.S.-Mexico border pregnant, with her 5- and 3-year-old daughters.

Back at home in Venezuela, she says there is nothing.

(DR. VICTOR TREVINO SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

NICOLE SGANGA: The mayor of Laredo has declared a citywide emergency.

DR. VICTOR TREVINO (Mayor of Laredo, Texas): The disaster is an imminent disaster. It may not be here right now, But it’s like a hurricane that’s coming. You board up before the hurricane.

(End VT)

NICOLE SGANGA: With this week’s policy change, U.S. officials expect as many as 10,000 migrants a day to traverse the U.S.-Mexico border at crossings like the one behind me — Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Nicole, thank you.

For more, we’re joined now by the Homeland security secretary, Alejandro Mayorkas.

It’s good to have you here in person, sir.

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS (U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security): Good morning, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Before we get to migration, I want to ask, do you have any information about this latest mass shooting in Texas, which may have been with an AR-15-style weapon?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Margaret, another horrific tragedy in our country.

I spoke with the governor last night, as well as the mayor. The matter is still under investigation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: No information about the shooter?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: No, Margaret, I think it’s — it’s under investigation. The state and local authorities are leading that investigation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Let’s get to the border.

This is the greatest migration surge, you said, in the Western Hemisphere since World War II. And you’ve been preparing for more than a year-and-a- half. How rough will the next few weeks be?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: You know, Margaret, we’ve been preparing for this for more than a year-and-a-half. You are correct.

And it is indeed a regional challenge. And it requires a regional response, which is why we are working so closely with many countries to the south. It’s going to take our plan a while to really take hold, for people to understand that they can access lawful, safe, orderly pathways before they reach the border.

And, quite frankly, if they come to the border, they will receive a consequence under our enforcement authorities.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you are, as an administration, setting up processing centers in Colombia and Guatemala, so migrants can start the asylum process before they make it to the border. But those aren’t set up yet. When will those be functional?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: So, we are furthest along with Colombia. It should be a matter of weeks.

But we also have additional lawful pathways that already have existed for people to access the…

MARGARET BRENNAN: The phone apps, you’re talking about.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Yes, the parole program for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans.

We are expanding our family reunification programs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you have announced 1,500 troops that are going to El Paso, Texas. Why not other parts of the border? Is Texas the most porous area?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Well, they will be dispersed as operational needs require.

And so the deployment of active-duty troops is not to do enforcement work, not to interact with the migrants, but to provide other support so that our border patrol agents can be out in the field.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The governor of Arizona and the senior senator told us that the federal government is unprepared.

Senator Sinema said Homeland Security is not sharing information with her or local law enforcement on numbers of migrants, processing time and available buses to transport them. The governor also said she needs more urgency, and she can’t get specific information on dollars for emergency shelters.

Why isn’t that kind of specific detail being shared?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Well, I respectfully disagree with the senator and the governor. Number one, we are prepared.

As we noted at the very beginning of our conversation, we’ve been preparing for this for quite some time. We tried to end Title 42 repeatedly and were — were stopped from doing so by the courts, so we are prepared, number one.

Number two, we have a migration information center that is specifically set up to communicate with state and local officials. And we have been doing so. We are using our FEMA regional coordinators as our key points of contact.

I spoke with Senator Sinema, I think, within the last two weeks, and our personnel are in touch with other officials on a regular basis.

MARGARET BRENNAN: She said she had been in touch with Homeland Security, also with the White House, but the information was not adequate.

So do you think there is a communication problem here?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: I do not. And if there is a question that has been unanswered, we will answer it. I will tell you, though, let’s take a step back because there’s a very important message, not to communicate only to Senator Sinema, but to all senators and all members of the House of Representatives.

We need immigration reform. Everything that the Department of Homeland Security is doing, everything that our partners across the federal government are doing, is within a broken immigration system. The president passed to Congress a proposal to fix our broken immigration system on the first day in office.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s like a to-do list. That’s different than putting your shoulder behind it, picking up the phone and saying, excuse me, Democrats control the Senate, let’s be out front on immigration.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Margaret, we have been pushing for immigration legislation since day one. And, by the way, it didn’t start on day one. This is a decades-long problem.

MARGARET BRENNAN: It is.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: The immigration system hasn’t been fixed since the ’90s.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Absolutely. And it has only seemingly gotten worse with the set of circumstances we’re in now.

But, to that point, this gets so politicized and you take a lot of the political heat yourself because you run the agency on the security portion of this. But if the politics are so bad, and the security situation is so difficult, and you need more resources, why isn’t the president out there talking more about the need for a border bill? Why isn’t Leader Schumer doing this?

It seems like the issue is being conceded to Republicans.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: I — I — Margaret, I just respectfully disagree. I spoke with Leader Schumer also within the last two weeks. We are in constant communication.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Is there a timeline for him?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: We — we are constantly — there is — there is not a day that goes by that we are not urging Congress to pass reform.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So does the administration support the bipartisan bill from Senator Sinema and Tillis that would allow for expelling of migrants for two years, similar to Title 42?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Title 42 and the expulsion authority is a public health authority.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: It is not an immigration authority.

We will be using our immigration authorities, which call for a consequence regime, which is why we have to correct the lies that smugglers tell vulnerable migrants. They think they’re coming and they’ll be able to stay, and that is just unequivocally false.

And what I would say to the senators, Senators Tillis and Sinema, what we need is our system fixed…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: … not this Band-Aid solution.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Bob Menendez, who’s the Chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, a Democrat, said the administration has ignored his proposals.

He objected to the sending of troops, and he criticized lack of planning. So, if you have people who are border-state Senators who want to do something, and then you have the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee saying he wants to do something, why is the administration ignoring that or pressing it — pushing it aside?

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: The administration is not ignoring it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Menendez said that.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: We are — we are pressing forward.

And, by the way, Senator Menendez, the Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, set forth a really thoughtful document with a number of pillars of action. And we have indeed implemented a number of those.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Henry Cuellar, a Democrat, said he has confidence in you and Homeland Security, but he said the White House is holding you back.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Untrue. One team, one mission, and we are prepared to execute it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, we’ll be watching. Good luck to you.

SECRETARY ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS: Thank you so much, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Late last week, we traveled to the border state of Arizona for the McCain Institute’s Sedona Forum honoring the late senator, who was known for his straight talk and ability to forge bipartisan compromise when the need arose.

We spoke with the state’s newly independent Senator Kyrsten Sinema. She left the Democratic Party last fall and is very much aligned with that maverick mind-set.

(Begin VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Now we’re in the midst of the hemisphere’s worst refugee crisis.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: That’s right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Partisanship is at such a high level. Is it simply a political reality that you can’t get comprehensive reform done; you have to chip away at this piecemeal?

What you introduced was a temporary two year authority to expel migrants, but with an exemption for asylum claims because of the immediate Title 42 expiration that’s coming up.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: That’s right. That’s a Band-Aid.

The Biden administration had two years to prepare for this and did not do so. And our state is going to bear the brunt. And migrants will be in crisis as soon as next week. It will be a humanitarian crisis, because we are not prepared.

So, the legislation we introduced yesterday is about tiding this over, giving us some time and space for the Biden administration to do their job and for us legislators to actually create a plan that can get through both the House and the Senate.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the votes aren’t there for this replacement, essentially, of Title 42, the two year ability to expel migrants without guaranteed asylum hearings.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: We don’t know that yet. We just introduced the bill yesterday.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Republican Senator Lankford was out criticizing it, saying it doesn’t solve the problem. And he has been a partner to you.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Oh, it doesn’t solve the problem, yeah.

No, but I don’t think that’s a criticism. He’s right that it doesn’t solve a problem.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You think you can get this passed before next week, before May 11?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Oh, God, no, Margaret. This is the United States Senate.

(LAUGHTER)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s what I was saying.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: I don’t think you can get agreement on a restroom break by next Thursday.

The United States Senate is functioning at a fairly dysfunctional level right now. And that’s due to the partisanship that is driving both parties. As you and I both know, both parties have benefited for decades by not solving this challenge.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: They use it to bash each other in elections. And what bothers me about that, Margaret, is that, look, they don’t live in a border state.

So they don’t know that the mayor of Gila Bend has to put migrants in his car and drive them to Phoenix, because they are released in a town that has no bus stop. They don’t know what it’s like for migrants to sleep outside in the farms in Yuma because there is nowhere for them to go.

This is a crisis for our border communities and for migrants. And so, unfortunately, the parties are thinking about this from a political perspective…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: … rather than a human perspective.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You said the administration failed to create a workable plan to process migrants after May 11, Title 42.

They would say they’ve got the troop deployment, 1,500, processing centers, a phone app, expansion of legal migration, regulations that will bar migrants from asylum if they did not first seek asylum in a third country.

Do you support any of what the administration has done?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Well, these steps, which all have been announced in the past week or so, are helpful.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: These are very helpful.

Having 1,500 troops along the U.S.-Mexico border is helpful. It is a border of over 2,000 miles though. So 1,500 troops isn’t going to get the job done. And that’s just a reality.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: We also are very concerned that all this is happening in the week or so before the rollout.

Just today, I was on the phone with a sheriff of Cochise County. He has gotten no information from the Department of Homeland Security or the federal government about what the flow is going to look like, about what they can expect for processing, in terms of how long it takes to process migrants. He’s got no information — neither have I — about how many buses that will be available to transport migrants.

Now, he’s gotten the information he does have from me, because I call him every few days, but he’s not gotten that information from the Department of Homeland Security.

Margaret, what’s unfortunate is that I’m asking for that information, and I’m not getting it. And so either — either the administration has that information and they’re choosing not to share it, which is a problem, since we’re the ones who are going to deal with the crisis, or they — or they don’t have it.

And that’s even more concerning, because how do you prepare for the inflow of migrants when you don’t know what you’re going to expect?

MARGARET BRENNAN: And that hasn’t been shared with the governor?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: It has not been shared with the governor. I spoke with the governor yesterday.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: It has not been shared. So we do not have this information.

There are three nonprofit organizations in Arizona that provide incredible, incredible assistance for our border communities. One is in Yuma. One is in Tucson. One is in Phoenix. They don’t have this information. And they’re the ones who are responsible for accepting the migrants after they’re released from custody.

So while it’s wonderful that the administration is announcing things like a 1,500 troop deployment and these new processing centers, which will not be operational by next Friday, those are good things. Those are aspirational. That’s not the same as operational.

Rent the buses. Hire the drivers. Build a soft-sided facility so that we can process individuals. We need more holding capacity. I mean, let’s be realistic here. And that’s what’s not — we’re not prepared for that. And that’s frustrating, Margaret. And the reason why it’s frustrating is because I know that that means that the sheriffs in our southern border are going to be bearing the brunt of it.

And our men and women of the Border Patrol will be working even longer shifts.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you talked to the White House directly about this?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Yes, I have.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s the response?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: It has not been adequate.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you care to elaborate?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: I do not.

(LAUGHTER)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because what you’re laying out is a level of crisis concern. So…

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Yes, that’s correct.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, they returned your call?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: That’s what I have been doing. I have been raising the alarm, because…

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do they return your calls?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Oh, yes. Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And just not share information?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Just not — right. That’s correct. This is a problem. We’ve had two years to prepare for this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that’s personal?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: No. No, not at all. I don’t think it’s personal.

I think that there’s a system in Washington, D.C. that is deeply disconnected from the real lives and experiences of border communities and the migrants who seek to come to this country.

But what I would like, Margaret, is for them to learn.

MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden acknowledged you as the lead co-author of bipartisan infrastructure bill.

He called you “the most determined woman I know.’ Leader McConnell said you’re “the most effective first-term senator I have seen in my time in the Senate.”

What would you want to get done in the second term?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: Immigration. It’s been part of my life’s work.

Folks who’ve known me for a long time in Arizona know that I started my career as a social worker. And when I started my career as a social worker, I actually worked in the immigrant refugee community. That was many years ago. So this is — this has been — it has been really important to me my entire life.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Are we that far off from it, that we’re looking past 2024?

SENATOR KYRSTEN SINEMA: No, I would like to do it before then.

Our state has suffered for the last 40 years because of the federal government’s failure to do anything about it. And we’re facing the worst crisis of my life right now with immigration.

So I want to do it now.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We will have more of our conversation with the senator in our next half-hour.

And we will be back in one minute.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: In preparation for our trip here to Sedona, Arizona, and the conversation with Senator Sinema, we looked back through the Face the Nation archives to see what the late Senator John McCain had to say about immigration.

Here’s what he said in 2007.

(Begin VT)

FMR. SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): Whenever there’s been a wave of immigration into this country, whether it’s legal or illegal, there’s been a certain backlash. You can go all the way back to the Irish and “Irish need not apply, you know, to the signs of stores in the 19th century.

And, unfortunately, in some ways, it’s gotten, I think, too emotional and too intense. Americans want the border secured, so we have to secure the borders first. They didn’t trust us or believe us that — when we said we would do it, so we have to do that first.

But just let me add — and, as I pointed out, they are God’s children. There are people who are being abused as we have spoken that are human — as we are speaking, who are human beings, and people who are bad people are having them work and not paying them. People are being exploited. The coyotes are doing terrible things. There are shoot-outs on our freeways in Arizona. Our emergency rooms are overcrowded.

These safe houses, terrible things happen. So there is a humanitarian side to this issue. And I think maybe we ought to also take that in consideration.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: And it’s still an emotional issue. And those challenges from 12 years ago still haven’t found solutions.

We will be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: You can find the full version of our conversation with Senator Sinema and other interviews on our Web site, FacetheNation.com, or on our YouTube channel.

We will be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with more of our conversation with Senator Sinema, who weighs in on the debt ceiling negotiations.

And we will also be joined by the chair of the Finance Committee, Congressman Patrick McHenry.

Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.

Here’s more of our conversation with Senator Kyrsten Sinema in Sedona last week.

(Begin VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about a quote that stood out to me that was in a recent “New York Times” profile of you. It quotes you as saying, one of the big problems in negotiations is that often some, not exclusively men, but often men, are so busy talking about what they need, they’re not spending any time hearing what someone else needs. If you give them what they need, you can get what you want.

So, on May 9th, five men, including the president of the United States, and four congressional leaders, are going to meet to discuss the standoff over the debt ceiling. You’ve been listening. What does a deal look like?

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: I’ve been disappointed with the conversations up to date. Both parties are talking without listening to each other. They’re just talking right past each other, right?

So, President Biden says, I want a clean debt limit to meet the full faith and responsibility of the United States of America. To be clear, he’s correct, we must meet the full faith and credit responsibility for the United States of America. That is our duty.

However, it’s not correct to assume or to pretend that either party is used to or always is willing to pass a debt limit without conditions. Both parties have played this game for years. And so we’re in a situation where one party is saying they will not negotiate at all with the other party. I think that’s a very dangerous place to be because, one, it’s not realistic. And, two, that is not going — it’s just not going to happen.

So, Kevin McCarthy, as we all saw, took him a long time to become speaker. Barely squeaked by with the votes. Had to make a lot of concessions to get the job. And he has a very, very, very narrow road to walk. So, he has to thread a needle where he can get the votes he needs to pass a debt limit increase and continue to be speaker.

Now, there have been sounds coming out from the Republican conference in the House for months, Patrick McHenry, who’s the chair of the House Financial Services Committee, Patrick has been talking for months about what a deal could look like. People have not been listening. They should be. I think folks should actually say, let’s hear these options.

The reality is, the bill that Kevin and his colleagues passed through the House is not going to be the solution.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: The votes do not exist in the United States Senate to pass that. But what the president is offering is not a realistic solution either. There’s not going to be just a simple, clean debt limit. The votes don’t exist for that.

So, the sooner these two guys get in the room and listen to what the other one needs, the more likely they are to solve this challenge and protect the full faith and credit of the United States of America. We’re in really shaky ground right now.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And now we have June 1st as the x date according to the Treasury secretary.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: That’s right. That’s right.

So, do you think that gives enough time for a broad agreement? If there’s been no talking to date, how do they get it done?

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: They could get it done.

MARGARET BRENNAN: By (INAUDIBLE).

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well in advance before an actual default.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: They could get it done, but it would be a challenge. I think what it would require is both Speaker McCarthy and the president and their representative party machines to kind of drop the facade, you know, like where they’re at right now and just sit down and talk about brass tacks. What does Kevin need in order to deliver the votes and what does the president need in order to feel comfortable the full faith and credit of the United States of America. Get to that point and then figure out a way to give each man what he needs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you weighing in on this at all?

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: I have conversations with my colleagues every day.

MARGARET BRENNAN: That sounds like a yes.

Well, back in 2011, it was a senator who helped deliver, you know, coming back from the brink, the last time there was the risk of default –

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: That’s right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: When Leader McConnell jumped in. Right now it doesn’t look like he’s jumping in.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: I don’t think he can.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: Well, I don’t think that a solution that was negotiated by Senator McConnell would carry the kind of weight that is needed with House Republican members.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So –

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: I think – I think Senator McConnell knows that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is why he’s saying talk to the House.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: That’s right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they’ll all be in the room on May 9th.

SENATOR KRYSTEN SINEMA: That’s right. That’s right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we’ll see what happens.

(End VT)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Our full conversation with Senator Sinema is on our website and our YouTube channel.

And we turn now to the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Patrick McHenry.

Mr. Chairman, good morning.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY (R-NC): Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The senator previewed some of your proposals here. So, I want to talk to you in depth about that. But just level set for us here, because we have the congressional leaders getting in the same room with the president Tuesday. You said in March you’ve never been more pessimistic about negotiations. Where is your confidence level today?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Instead of being at the depths of the ocean, I’m merely drowning. I mean if that – that tells you any – so, my level of optimism is from complete and utter pessimism, anything could get done, to some level of modest pessimism now.

What’s changed since that interview is that the House acted. We passed a debt ceiling increase with a Republican plan attached to it. It talks about growth, spending restraint —

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just barely.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: But we did. It’s a narrow House. It’s going to be a narrow vote. But we – we dealt with growth, we dealt with immediate spending and long-term savings. So, a balance program here.

Now, we’ve sent this over to the Senate. The president said, show us your plan. We’ve not only shown up with a plan, we’ve passed a plan.

The Senate can’t do it now with 43 senators saying we’re not going to go along with the Schumer plan for a clean debt ceiling increase, the Biden plan, and now the Biden — President Biden has to come to a table for a negotiated solution. He needs to listen to his economic advisors, not his political advisors, and take this very seriously given the late stage that we’re currently in.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You were just referencing a letter that was signed on to by a number of senators, including Minority Leader McConnell, who seems to be throwing his weight behind the speaker of the House. What does a bipartisan deal actually look like?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: It looks a lot like the bill that we passed out of the House. It touches growth. It touches —

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s dead on arrival in the Senate. You know that.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Well, we sent a significant large bill that brings down the cost of government by $4.5 trillion over the next decade. It’s big, yes, but we sent growth, short-term cap steel (ph) on spending so we can fund our government for the next two years without drama, and then long-term savings. So, a pairing of one, two, and three, that’s what a deal looks like.

I’ve talked to a lot of senators, a lot of Democrats and Republicans in the House and the Senate, to try to see what a deal would look like. And at this stage of the game, the one key ingredient I don’t have is what the administration would come to terms with. We have to have something that can pass, that addresses our fiscal house at a time where we have record inflation and record federal spending, and we need to have something that can both pass with Republicans and Democrats.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Exactly. It has to be bipartisan. And you acknowledge it’s going to be likely a narrow vote in the House. With the – but the vote you did get through, there were four Republicans against it, two of them have said they will never vote to raise the debt ceiling, Tim Burchett and Andy Biggs. So, compromise is where you have to get here, right? I mean but – but –

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: You’re saying this to a member of the House that actually passed a debt ceiling increase and a president who would not have a second meeting with the speaker of the House. The first meeting was February 1st.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: We’re 100 days past. Everyone knows in divided government you have to negotiate. And the president says, he will not negotiate. So, the absurdity of the position the president has put himself in where he is playing politics with the economy is markedly different than previous debt ceiling increases where Republicans have been viewed as the recalcitrants. We’ve actually done something and the administration says we’re not going to talk.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The Treasury secretary said today it’s you all who are putting a gun to the head of the American economy. That is what she said. And she’s talking about the fact that you have a —

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: A hell of a statement on a day like today –

MARGARET BRENNAN: It is, but –

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Which shows that it’s all about politics for this administration –

MARGARET BRENNAN: U.S. Treasuries are the bedwalk –

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Not about economic stability.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Bedrock of the financial system. You know that very well. So, don’t you need to just say, default’s off the table?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: And that’s what we did by passing a plan. The president did not think we could pass a plan out of the House. So, therefore, he said, it’s a clean debt ceiling or nothing. And so debt — a clean debt ceiling is now off the table with Republicans in the House and Senate saying, time to negotiate between the speaker and the president. That’s all we’re saying.

The speaker has not laid down a red line. Those — that’s been done in previous iterations of the debt ceiling by Democrats and Republicans in the legislative branch.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: He didn’t do that. There are no red lines other than the fact that we must address our fiscal house at a time where federal spending is up 40 percent from pre-Covid levels. I think it’s a reasonable thing for us to do. And, in fact, that’s what the American people say –

MARGARET BRENNAN: So –

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Three out of four Americans say the president shouldn’t negotiate with the speaker to address our fiscal house.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to get to banking too, but just, very quickly, is a short-term patch off the table, a short term lift of the debt ceiling?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: I think everything’s on the table at this point. The key thing that has to be in this equation is addressing our fiscal house, short term and long term.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

On the banking sector right now, last time you were here you mentioned concern about some of the smaller banks in America, community banks, being endangered. On Monday the government, the FDIC, sold failed regional bank First Republic to JP Morgan Chase. That’s the country’s largest bank. It got even bigger here.

Are you going to take action to address some of this? Because there’s concern on both sides of the aisle about big banks getting bigger?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Yes. And the way we have to do this is, I agree with Michael Barr, the vice chair of the Fed’s review, we have to provision for liquidity more quickly for these smaller banks. We have to make sure that we have a healthy banking arrangement across the whole spectrum. And we have to ensure the banking models can exist in a society where bank runs can happen more quickly than ever before.

But let’s get to the fundamentals here. If we look at the reason why these banks, the three of the 30 largest banks in America failed in the last two months, it’s because of interest rate sensitivity of their balance sheet, which means they misjudged inflation. The Fed misjudged inflation. They’ve admitted it. They’re behind the curve. The administration has been asleep at the switch for the supervisors of these institutions. But the root cause of this is inflation. And if we can address inflation –

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: It gets to the disease rather than functioning — addressing the symptoms.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, management choices and hedging their bets could have been a big factor here when it came to the CEOs who ran these institutions.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Absolutely.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you going to call them in for testimony?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: And they’re going to be in.

MARGARET BRENNAN: When?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Two weeks before the House Financial Services Committee. And this is going to be an important hearing. In the next two months, the House Financial Services Committee will have the CEOs of these failed institutions. We’re going to have the regulators in, including Secretary Yellen and Chair Powell. At the end of June, we’re going to have our Humphry Hawkins hearing to hear from the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jay Powell. Those are important dates in this calendar, especially given the state of banking in America today.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And all the pieces affecting the economy right now.

I want to ask you as well, though, about the stability of the banking sector because you had Jaime Dimon and Jay Powell, two of the most important people in the financial space, saying banks are solid. And then we saw all the volatility in the marketplace again this week. California’s PacWest, Arizona’s Western Alliance, those two regional banks under pressure. Are we going to see more government rescues?

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: Unfortunately, we’re not out of the woods. But what depositors need to understand is, since 1933, when we enacted and created the Federal Deposit Insurance Commission, insured deposits have never had a penny of loss. We have 99 percent of the accounts in America are under the insured deposit cap level.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK MCHENRY: And so 99 percent of the deposits in America are safe and sound. What we have to do is address, over a period of time, the safety and stability of smaller banks, in a time where the market is judging their business model, their interest rate sensitivity and the assumption that regulators are going to require a lot more capital for these banks to exist, they’re making big assumptions. But the stability of the accounts, they’re there.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve got your work cut out for you. Good to have you on the program today. We’ll be watching May 9th. And we’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: Late last week, North Carolina’s Republican-led legislature passed a bill that would limit abortion access in the state.

For more we want to go to the state’s Democratic governor, Roy Cooper, who joins us from Raleigh.

Good morning to you, Governor.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER (D-NC): Good morning, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just To make it clear, abortion is currently permitted up to 20 weeks of pregnancy in your state. This bill coming out of your legislature would bring it down to 12 weeks, which, according to the CDC, would still allow more than 90 percent of abortions to continue. Republicans say they’re offering a middle ground here. Why do you think this bill is too restrictive?

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: They’ve dressed this up as a 12-week ban, but it’s really not. They rammed through a bill in 48 hours with no public input, with no amendments, that drastically reduces access to reproductive freedom for women. It will effectively ban many abortions altogether because of the obstacles that they have created for women, for clinics, and for doctors. They have tried to disguise the disastrous impacts of this bill, but we’re going to expose them.

This bill has nothing to do with making women safer and everything to do with banning abortions.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well —

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: You only need —

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just to —

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Go ahead.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So our viewers can follow along with you here, the bill would cut it off at the end of the first trimester, roughly 12 weeks. There would be an allowance for abortion up to 20 weeks in case of rape or incest, 24 weeks if there are fetal abnormalities. But what you’re talking about are requirements like number of times you have to visit a doctor, information that a woman would have to share publicly.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: For sure. And also, in fact, for medication abortion, the bill specifically limits it to 10 weeks. And with these additional requirements of three in-person visits that doctors have said are medically unnecessary, with more requirements put on clinics that are already strained with four-week backlogs of people, North Carolina has become an access point in the southeast.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And what this legislation is going to do is going to prevent many women from getting abortions at any time during their pregnancy because of the obstructions that they have put here. Many of these clinics are working very hard to treat women and now they’re going to have many new medically unnecessary requirements that I think many of them are going to have to close.

MARGARET BRENNAN: North Carolina has become a haven in the south because so many of your surrounding states have severely restricted access. I know that you have — and we’re showing a map there just to show where you are at the moment — but you have vowed to veto this bill. But your state legislature has a super majority that could override it. So, what is your plan to stop them?

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Well, first, we only need one Republican to keep a promise, at least four Republican legislators made promise that their constituents during this campaign that they were going to protect women’s reproductive freedom. They only have a super majority by one vote in the Senate and one vote in the House. And we’ve seen Republicans across the country step up. We saw them step up in South Carolina. We saw them step up in Nebraska, because they know that people don’t want abortion bans. And that’s what this bill is. The more people find out about it —

MARGARET BRENNAN: Why would they respond – why would they respond to your public calling out? Why do you think that would matter to them?

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Well, they don’t have to answer to me, they have to answer to their constituents. So what I’m doing is trying to educate the public about the disaster that this bill is. And I’m going to go into their districts, I’m going to go into their districts this week, we’re going to have forums with doctors and advocates and women who care deeply about the restrictions in this legislation, and we’re going to educate the public.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Look, they kept this bill under lock and key. They wouldn’t let their own members take a copy out. The public only saw it for 48 hours.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: It’s 46 pages long.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And it creates so many problems for women and clinics that it’s going to operate as an effective ban. And we’re not going to – we’re not going to let them disguise this thing as something reasonable when it’s not.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I mean, compared to some of your surrounding states, 12 weeks is more permissive but –

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: If it were – if it were 12 weeks, Margaret, but it’s not. It’s not a 12-week ban.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Well – OK.

You don’t have the votes, though, to codify abortion access in the state of North Carolina. Why have Democrats —

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: No, we do not.

MARGARET BRENNAN: No. And so, why have Democrats been so out maneuvered on this issue? I mean this just seems to be that even if you get rid of this bill you’re going to have this fight again and again and again. So, where is the compromise?

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: So, the problem is, we have super gerrymandered districts and the Democrats were in the super minority. Every single Democrat has signed a bill to enact Roe v. Wade standards. We’re all standing together and fighting. And what we have to do now is defend ourselves from these right wing politicians who want to go into the exam room with women and their doctors.

You know, these right-wing politicians make crappy doctors and they’ve gone in and defined medical doctors. Doctors are looking at this legislation and say, what in the world does that mean. So, what we’re going to do is call them out.

Look, there are four Republicans — four Republicans who said they would protect women’s reproductive freedoms during the campaign.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: All we need is one of them. We can block this disastrous legislation and then we can wait for the next battle.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: But what we’re going to do is continue to work to protect women’s reproductive freedom in North Carolina.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you’re just going to be on the defensive there. So, I mean, how does this actually get resolved? Do you — can you hold a referendum? Can you do anything? If you say the public’s with you, how do you find a compromise?

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Yes. Well, first, we’re not a referendum state.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: We had gerrymandered districts. So, we have a Republican majority. Thank goodness I’m a Democratic governor so I can rally the troops. For four years – for four years I have kept abortion legislation from becoming law that Republicans had passed. But in this election cycle, we – we lost — they – they gained a super majority by one vote in each chamber. So, now we’ve in a different position. We’ve – we’ve – we’ve held the – held the line for four years.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: But if we can get a Republican to say, look, this is not right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: Like they did in South Carolina. Like they did in Nebraska.

MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.

GOVERNOR ROY COOPER: And their constituents, the more they learn, the more they are going to demand that these Republican legislators step up.

MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. All right, Governor, we’ll leave it there.

We’ll be back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: The fighting in Ukraine has intensified as Kyiv launches a series of drones in Crimea ahead of an expected spring counter offensive against Russia. Senior foreign correspondent Charlie D’Agata is in Dnipro with more.

(Begin VT)

CHARLIE D’AGATA (voice over): The battle for Bakhmut has burst into flames. Ukraine accusing the Wagner mercenary group of using banned incendiary weapons, possibly white phosphorus, posting videos as proof. Deploying them in civilian areas is a war crime.

A ferocious parting shot at the head of Wagner, Yevgeny Prigozhin, declares he’s pulling his forces out of Bakhmut by Wednesday following a rant against Russian defense officials in front of dozens of corpses of his men, saying their blood is still warm, blaming their deaths on a severe lack of ammunition.

The death toll after ten months of fighting has run into the thousands, unsustainable losses for both sides. A sea of Ukrainian flags fly over the final resting place of the country’s war dead.

CHARLIE D’AGATA (on camera): The Ukrainian government never reveals the true death toll of those soldiers killed in action, but these fresh graves tell their own story, including those they’re preparing to fill.

CHARLIE D’AGATA (voice over): Ahead of the looming Ukrainian counter offensive, Russia has gone on the offensive. The U.S. State Department clocked more than 150 air strikes since the start of May. Ukraine has stepped up its attacks too, striking targets like fuel depots on Russian territory.

It’s still not clear who was behind the attempted drone strike of the Kremlin on Wednesday, but U.S. officials and Ukrainian experts tell CBS News it had to be launched from inside Russia. Maybe not the terrorist act to kill Putin the Kremlin says it is, but it’s an embarrassment ahead of a show of power for the president, Moscow’s victory parade, an annual symbol of Russian military might while the bloody battlefields of Ukraine tell a much different story.

(End VT)

CHARLIE D’AGATA: Although that Moscow parade is still scheduled to go ahead on Tuesday, more than 20 parades across Russia have been canceled citing security concerns. Although there are questions about whether there are enough troops and equipment to put on display.

Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Charlie D’Agata, thank you.

We’ll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

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